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Question by Graham-Dunnett · May 16, 2014 at 02:26 PM · meta

[meta] Is Answers doomed?

http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252506/question-quality-is-dropping-on-stack-overflow/252967#252967

Comments wanted. :-(

(That "overwhelmed Unity staff member Graham" obviously isn't trying hard enough.)


It's not doomed man, it's dead! Definition:

"the Unity site "is now dead, functionally" means: hence, if I post a serious advanced question, quite simply, nobody sees it. The flood of "ridiculously low quality" questions is overwhelming. So the site is not usable, not functioning, you can not get "answers" there."

Here's some idiot on SO using this site as an example of a dead site:

http://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/252967/294884

I really just think Unity is a victim of it's own popularity. With a phenomenon like Unity - 8 billion kids wanting to Make A 3D Horror Game - how could the post board not be overwhelmed? It would be like expecting there to not be screaming at a Beatles concert in the 60s. That's life. I used to be angry that questions are no longer noticed; now I just see it as an obvious consequence of the screaming hordes of Unity fans. You can't blame newbies for wanting to program, it's the only game in town. Go, Unity!

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avatar image Loius · May 16, 2014 at 03:42 PM 0
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Answers is only as doomed as RPG Maker and Game Maker and every other "anyone can join in" "forum". It's gonna be full of things that experienced members see as 'garbage' because that's how humans behave. Ain't no fixin' it, but it's fun to whine about. :)

avatar image Scribe · May 16, 2014 at 10:54 PM 3
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Well I myself am quite far off the karma of most of the top users and far from an 'old timer' but still would be bunched quite comfortably somewhere in the higher 1% karma-wise on the site. This means I do have quite a lot of moderation rights, one thing I would really like to see would be some sort of moderators guideline.

When I hit 1k karma and the moderation tab opened up I was really quite excited to be able to help filter the site however I really had nothing to go on as to 'the expected thing to do' so I accepted the few questions I saw that I would like to answer or see answered and left the rest in the queue for fear that I may reject something that I shouldn't. We really need an FAQ for the moderation queue, I still don't know how to properly deal with duplicate questions in the queue, reject them? accept them and comment with a link to duplicate? as a result I simply... do nothing, and hand over the responsibility to whoever next looks at the list (I know that is terrible, sorry).

As well as this, why does down-voting incur a karma charge? Someone who recognises that a question is bad and downvotes it should not be punished, that seems ridiculous to me, downvoting bad content should be rewarded if anything.

Also I feel that if a question receives 5 downvotes from users with 1k+ karma, it should be automatically closed as an easy implementation of 'vote to close' for users with too little karma to close themselves.

Thanks for trying to address this Graham!

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avatar image getyour411 · May 17, 2014 at 02:13 AM 1
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The post certainly makes valid points but in the whole it is too negative. There are experienced members that are killing it nightly on UA and others that drop by and answer questions from time to time. There's also a good group of midfielders - from the karma perspective - that take an active interest. Others leaving UA whether from '#!@#$ this' burnout or to work on new endeavors, well that's a simile for life itself.

Downvoting should not carry a penalty, tempered with the caveat that it doesn't do so once you have 3K karma or some similar number to avoid abuse: reaching such a milestone implicitly proves you care about UA. I disagree with the premise that a downvote should result in a karma reward though.

Upvote more often, and modify the UA 'most voted' tab to allow for a filter criteria of last 7 days, 30 days, etc. Ironically, the current 'most voted' post is

http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/18806/what-can-we-do-to-improve-the-quality-of-unityansw.html

Aggressively close questions that are clearly unresearched, how do I turn on my flashlight while pressing 'E', how do I pick up a coin, how to I do this thing (which the doc examples exactly demonstrates), or questions that commit similar abuses; link to a doc reference or previous duplicate if you want, but close it. In the event of mod err, there's always the reopen button should the OP make a valid case but 99% of those, I wager, are never responded to.

avatar image Eric5h5 · May 17, 2014 at 04:10 AM 2
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Yes, it is doomed. Dooooomed!! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!!!!

avatar image AlucardJay · May 27, 2014 at 05:50 PM 1
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UA is a beginners forum, that's the discussion topic. Quite simply, if you ask a decent technical question, you will not get an answer. It becomes lost under all the beginner questions that have been answered 1000's of times before. For at least the last six months, any question that is actually interesting and above the norm that I subscribe to, I never get an email stating it was commented on or answered. The people I know who program for a living won't come near this 'site.

If you want people with skilled knowledge to come back, there must be an Advanced section. But as fafase stated, this has been discussed many times before, and nothing is going to change ....

Again, I refer to my comment on this thread :

... Which leads me to the initial problem and the guts of this question. I never receive emails to 'followed' questions I think are of a high technical caliber, they are simply left unanswered, lost in the jumble. So how does a serious developer get an answer to a high technical question that is causing an impass? It's not a matter of karma, most of the best questions are asked by very low karma users, because they for the most part just work it out themselves, and have no need to constantly refer to UA for help. They also don't have time to be a regular contributer to raise their karma. And karma simply does not work, I'm constantly down-voting 'write-my-code' questions because another new programmer wants the same code supplied and has upvoted.

The only way this type of user will ever receive an answer is as suggested by Fattie and the people here, there has to be an Advanced section. Questions can be promoted to this list by high karma mods, hardcore devs can read these filtered questions easily and provide advanced help (which others like me would be very grateful in being able to read and learn from once again). All while the bulk of UA remains to help the new user on an individual basis.

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Answer by robertbu · May 20, 2014 at 06:48 AM

UA is not dead, but it is not healthy either. Healthy sites grow, change, and evolve to handle new situations. I see very little investment in this site. The only significant change in the infrastructure I recall in the last 18 months is the addition of line numbers to the source. It took 11 months for something as critical as 'Send Message' in the moderation queue to be fixed, and I've noticed that reported spammers are not having their accounts suspended. There is a real disconnect between the people with ownership of the site and the community who regularly participate in the site.

Demographic changes Changing demographics is the issue most talked about most on the site. Unity is popular, and there is a rising tide of beginning programmers attempting to use Unity. Unity Answers is not evolving to handle the change. Schools are adopting Unity as the platform for programming classes. An increasing number of artists with little or no programming experience are trying to bring their vision alive through a patchwork of found scripts. Because of its visual nature and focus on games, Unity is a tempting starting place for any beginning programmer.

But many beginning programmers don't know how to ask a technical question. Often beginning programmers don't know how to research a technical issue (or asking first is easier than research). Beginning programmers don't have the experience to take an answer or multiple answers to a similar question and remold it to their needs. The result is rising number of duplicate and poorly asked questions. In terms of moderation, UA operates the same today as it did 24 months ago...a few rejections, a few closures, but in general everything is approved . While we may point to the FAQ and the vision for the site, in reality there are few standards, and whatever standards exist have routinely ignored or violated (including by high Karma individuals). Each individual moderator does what he thinks is right (or what he feels like doing) with little guidance.

Other Issues While the changing demographics is the elephant in the room, there are a number of other issues that could be addressed. Here are a few of the top of my head:

  • Mediocre searching (both Google and UA) make finding past answers difficult. I can't count the number of times I've gone looking for an answer to direct someone to, only to fail to find it.

  • Users using 'Answers' as comments (there have been a couple of propose fixes).

  • Questions answered by comments that remain 'unanswered'.

  • The number of questions that are never resolved/accepted.

  • Closure mechanism does not reflect the values of the site

Addressing the problems First, there must be some resources made available to charge/evolve the site. While there are things that can be done without changing the site, these changes become cumbersome without site support. We need a sense that if we debate ideas and come up with something that has community support, that someone is listening and will give us feedback and resources concerning these ideas...whether they can be done, and if so on what schedule.

As for content changes, there is something interesting about this site...ninty plus percent of all questions that anyone would consider questionable pass through moderation. So all it would take to change the nature of the questions to be answered would be standards embraced by around a dozen active moderators. In reality what is needed is a set of specific community standards that can be applied semi-objectively. This is one of the problems I've had with other pushes to change content...there were no clear standards for what was being closed.

Personally, I'm not in favor of placing limits on the sophistication of questions. Beginners should be able to get answers here. But I do think it is appropriate to push back on the quality of the question (for everyone including beginners). Poorly asked questions cause a number of problems on this site. For me a well asked questions has:

  • A title that reflects the content of the question - Google places a lot of weight on the title. Without a good title, it is difficult to find (and build upon) past answers.

  • Good context - what defines 'good' varies from question to question, but a solid description of the problem, source when applicable, a description of how things are setup in the scene when needed, how the character is being moved, etc. We should be able to answer the question without a number of requests for information and/or a number of guesses at the answer.

  • Some indication that the OP did some research or other investment in figure the problem out for himself before asking for help. This might be a script attempt or a reference to other material.

In addition to 'good question' standards, there are other categories of questions that we should at least discuss if they should be supported. Here is a quick brainstorm of some categories. I think several of them should get a Meta question so we can decide if this is something we want to do:

  • Conversions of whole scripts between Javascript and C# - I don't have any trouble helping someone who has made an honest attempt and needs some help, or if someone posts a short section of code that are causing trouble. But there is plenty of material available for anyone, including beginners, to take a shot at the conversion. Isn't it fair to ask someone to at least make an attempt at conversion before asking for help?

  • Write scripts for you - I'm including both explicit and implied. Many questions say, "I need a script," but there are also the questions that give a long laundry list of features. Many of these are closed, but many are also answered.

  • Not enough context to answer the question - Isn't it reasonable to reject questions that don't have enough information for a target answer? The OP can fix their question and ask again.

  • Lack of research - is it unreasonable to suggest that OPs first make an attempt to find the answer before posting a question?

  • Instructional materials request - Comes in several forms. Typical one start out with "What is the best book..." Or, "Is there are tutorial for...".

  • Legal questions - The questions concerning Unity directly have been asked and answered many times. For other questions, we are not a forum of lawyers. Do we really want to support these questions?

  • Multiple technical questions - Often comes in a too general question that has multiple things that need answering.

  • Discussion/design questions - I'm about the only one who closes these questions.

  • Presentation issues: poor title, source pasted in as an image, large blocks of bold or upper case text, unformatted code. Are these reason enough to reject a question and ask the OP to fix the problems and resubmit the question?

  • Off topic - we answer a lot of non-unity-specific questions: C# language issues, geometry/vector questions, game design questions, and most of all debugging questions that are just dealing with programming and have nothing specifically to do with Unity. Do we want support all of these?

Unity Player specific questions - installation or other issues. Some get closed, some get published answered.

  • And I'll bet there are a few more categories.


Once we've defined the standards, these standards need to make their way back into the reject and closure mechanisms. I'd like a single line closure/reject as we have now for closure, but the closure text would have a 'more info' link to short paragraph describing what the closure means, how it can be fixed or addressed, and perhaps in some cases, links to material to help. User should have a common experience. It is not a specific moderator applying some arbitrary standard. It is Unity Answers' standard being applied in a semi-uniform way. In addition closure and rejection lists that reflect Unity standards would give new moderators needed guidance on what should and should not be published.

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avatar image Romano · May 20, 2014 at 08:21 AM 0
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Great answer.

I would maybe say though that where you define a quality question as showing some indication of effort on the part of the person asking the question:

Some indication that the OP did some research or other investment in figure the problem out for himself before asking for help. This might be a script attempt or a reference to other material.

that this sounds dangerously like they have to apologise for asking the question in the first place and prove they are worthy of having it answered. If a person has read up on a subject and asks a question about it, should they really be penalised for not citing what they've read? Couldn't people just decide for themselves whether or not they want to answer/ ignore it/ ask if the person has already read some article, etc?

I don't disagree that an ideal question WOULD contain an indication of research or effort though, and in many cases its necessary to have this info in order to answer the question properly. I just think Answers works very well at the moment as a way for people (many of whom have very poor English) to get help with lots of very frustrating and difficult tasks and I'd just hope that it stays simple to use and no one has legitimate questions deleted because of very rigid rules enforced by people who have forgotten what its like to struggle to learn how to program.

avatar image robertbu · May 20, 2014 at 09:42 AM 2
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@Romano - I applaud your defense of the beginner, but you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Your point of view seems to only take a look at the relationship between a beginning programmer and the person answering the question. For every person asking a question on UA, there are many more searching UA for their answers. UA serves a dual role as both a forum and as a database of answers. The original idea was for question to get answered once. Future duplicate questions would be closed as a duplicate and reference the original. Over time you'd build a database of correct answers. While UA has drifted a long way from that mission, it is still one of the main places people search for answers to Unity issues.

Not closing duplicate question, and therefore allowing all questions on the list, results in two things: 1) as experienced programmers grow tired of the same question and don't answer, less experienced programmers post less-than-optimal answers...and sometimes just wrong answers. Being newer, these answers pop to the top of Google searches meaning the people searching UA may not get good answers. And 2) as UA becomes indidated with duplicate beginner questions, experienced programmers no longer participate in the list. This means that many harder questions are not being answered.

It is a balancing act, and I don't think asking an OP with a really basic, and many-times-answered question to search out answers is setting to too high a standard.

avatar image Romano · May 20, 2014 at 10:36 AM 0
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I don't disagree with any particular thing you just said, I like that idea of duplicate questions referencing another answer and being closed - it's nice and tidy and would make UA very searchable. But I don't think the solution to the problem of untidiness is to make things harder for beginners by rejecting questions that some people are more than happy to answer. I agreed in the most part with your previous post, and I agree that its not much to ask someone to search out an answer - all I was suggesting was that it was a bit much to require people to show what effort they'd already put in.

avatar image robertbu · May 20, 2014 at 05:06 PM 0
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@Romano - I'm not requiring people to say what effort they put in, I suggestion that a moderator can reject a question when the nothing in the question shows they put any effort into the problem. The language used, any reference to something they tried and failed, reference to code they did not understand, using the right terminology, a bit of script, and more provide the clues that someone did something other than just type the question into UA. My conjecture is that ninety plus percent of all beginner questions that do not include code are duplicates of some sort. Rejecting a question is always a judgement call, but all the OP has to do is revise the question and resubmit.

avatar image Romano · May 21, 2014 at 06:22 AM 0
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Was thinking about what @Robertbu said about UA being for both beginners and experts and trying to find a balance:

What if all questions were allowed and were only deleted in extreme cases (i.e full of swearing, unintelligible)? That would certainly result in a sea of questions you don't want in the database. But what if all answered questions are deleted after 2 weeks, unless a moderator commits them to the database?

That way if moderators think the question has no place in the database it gets deleted without them having to lift a finger, but it still might provide a beginner with an answer to their question.

A disclaimer like this would also give newbies an actual incentive to search the database first:

"If your question has been asked many times before, an experienced user may not answer it and may be answered instead by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. To increase your chance of finding a quality answer please search the database first. If the question has been asked before it is also likely that it won't make it into the database."

This way experienced users have the tidy searchable database they want (plus 2 weeks worth of unavoidable unfiltered questions) and beginners can ask questions in an unconvoluted way without fear of being deleted right away, but its their own fault for not searching for a higher quality answer first.

Committing an answer to the database would need a moderator to click "Commit To Database" somewhere.

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Answer by eeveelution8 · May 17, 2014 at 02:27 AM

No. I used to ask the very same questions that veterans hate, but that was when i didn't know an ounce of coding. I would depend on people better than me to help, and after a while, I got a hang of it, and now I'm a decent coder because of the people who were kind enough to do so.

Unlike OTHER people, I haven't forgotten that I once didn't know anything about coding, so I feel good when i provide thorough answers and entire scripts to newbies because I still remember. The more you help the newbies, the more people who actually learn how to code there will be to help out the newbies once again.

I interpret most of the hate towards people asking silly or simple questions, is just whining. What I'm saying is that it's a cycle that people shouldn't get snippety about, But I guess that's just my opinion.

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avatar image ffxz7ff · May 20, 2014 at 05:10 PM 2
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This is nonsense. You can answer some guy's 100th "write my code question" and "why doesn't my script work", he won't help anyone, ever. Because he's lazy, not into programming, and his work won't ever amount to anything. Half of the UA users come here, ask how to make their perfect game in the next 3 hours and never return.

If you learned coding on Unity UA, good job, but it would have been more effective for you to seek help on a C#-related platform.

Calling this whining is a joke, right?

avatar image Romano · May 21, 2014 at 02:33 PM 1
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I disagree that people's work has to "amount to something" for them to deserve an answer. They might be doing a school project and just need help and only want to get into it briefly. They might decide that Unity is too complex and not for them. See what you think of my comment on the answer that @robertbu posted - it's a suggestion for a way to please both experts and one timers.

avatar image eeveelution8 · May 27, 2014 at 12:19 AM 0
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no ffxz7ff, it's not a joke.

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Answer by getyour411 · May 19, 2014 at 11:07 PM

Cross posting from the other long 'What can we do to improve...'

http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/18806/what-can-we-do-to-improve-the-quality-of-unityansw.html?page=6&pageSize=5&sort=votes

A quick win to improve the experience: put a filter option on Questions / Most [Up] Voted to allow selecting only those in the last day, 3 days, 7 days, 14 days, 30 days, including option to show answered/unanswered. That would separate most of the wheat from the chaff with a simple change. Interesting questions upvoted would show, hundreds of how do I press E to turn on flashlight won't.

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Answer by gdubrocks · May 20, 2014 at 03:24 AM

I haven't posted a lot, but every time I have it has gotten me out of a situation I was stuck in for a very long time. For those new to Unity answering the "stupid questions" is really important.

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Answer by Graham-Dunnett · May 16, 2014 at 02:29 PM

Probably not.

The whole site seems to run using comments as answers (and I am just as guilty as the next). Maybe we should all try harder to post real answers and not comments? I use comments when I am not 100% sure I am answering the question. :-(

Maybe we should try harder to close questions that are not new/original? I've started picking any question that lists a compiler error number, and add a tag with that error number. I then add a comment with a link to the tag page, and close the question as a duplicate. Is that too restrictive?


Hey Graham, regarding the "comments not answers" phenomenon -- "QA board reverse snobbery" -- , it's an internet wide issue

Some idiot was talking about it here for example: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/253687/294884

Note that the new-new thing is just editing answers; "comments-not-answers" is like last Tuesday's cool, you know?

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avatar image AlucardJay · May 16, 2014 at 03:49 PM 4
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It's too late. I refer to my comments on this post. This happened with trying to please all of the people all of the time. Majority rule didn't work, the quality is gone, and the brains of the operation have left the building. ( I even had a comment from a former high karma mod stating 'UA used to be good until people like me started using it').

There is a very interesting graphic linked in your post :

alt text

source

I was a 3, then a 1, now I fluctuate between 1 and 4. (but I still try).

Sorry, but I agree with the post in your question, and the proof is in the pudding.

Not posting Answers as Comments isn't the solution, it isn't even the problem. A comment as a solution with an answer or a link usually indicates the quality of question. I post links when it is basically a duplicate question or a case of RTFM, I post answer comments because the OP is probably a panda (eats, shoots, leaves) or it falls in the first two cases, or a fourth being use a damn search engine.

This just feels like another rehash of all the 'Quality of UA' discussions already had (including my now infamous one), and the points are still the same. It's not gonna happen unless there is a definitive guideline on what a suitable question is, and solidarity among moderators. Honestly, after my last META discussion on this, I feel like only Fattie and myself put our necks on the chopping block and started to get a bit sterner. And boy, did the hate come, in comments and PMs.

But no-one wants to hear from me on any more meta questions (because of above reasons), so I'll shut up now (until I open it again to insert the other foot). I'm curious where this is going to go....

and I'm sorry if I offended you previously or in this comment Graham, it was never my intention (I still think you're probably a top bloke), I just say what I think to my own detriment. But no-one is holding the reins and this horse is running wild

avatar image Graham-Dunnett ♦♦ · May 16, 2014 at 04:05 PM 3
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@fattie @alucardj - maybe too late to tell you this, but if you get any flack off anyone for trying to make this place better, just PM me and I'll let the offender know they are not permitted to argue with the old timers ;-)

avatar image Eric5h5 · May 17, 2014 at 04:15 AM 5
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I do wish there was button next to the "reject" button that was a "reject and automatically send user a message that the submission was rejected because it was terrible" button. Although maybe with more polite wording.... Just silently deleting stuff seems wrong, but much of the time just deleting is the best option, rather than wasting time trying to "fix" it.

avatar image Graham-Dunnett ♦♦ · May 17, 2014 at 02:28 PM 1
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@Eric5h5 - yeah I wholeheartedly agree with you. Messaging on answers was removed so as to not conflict with PMs on the forum, but I think it's time to reconsider that.

avatar image Eric5h5 · May 20, 2014 at 04:35 AM 2
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None of the experts here are customer service people or work for Unity

I bet Graham Dunnett will be very surprised to learn that....

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